In the second Google Chat about ethics in political communication we talk to the leaders of GW College Democrats & Republicans Keith Nagy & John Olds about the ethical responsibility of political communication professionals, and what future political communication professionals might learn from GWU.
The below is a lightly edited transcript of a Google Chat with John and Keith, moderated by Project associate Conor Kilgore. The chat took place from 4p-5p on Friday, February 14. John’s, Keith’s, Conor’s and Peter’s comments have been edited for grammar and clarity.
The Participants
Keith Nagy is the president of GW College Democrats and political affairs director for DC College Democrats. He is a second-year political science major from Topeka, Kansas. He formerly interned with an environmental NGO and a transportation lobbying firm. @keithlnagy
John Olds is the chairman of GW College Republicans. He is a junior from Merrimac, Massachusetts majoring in political science and economics. He previously served as an intern at the U.S. Chamber of Commerce and for Governor Charlie Baker. @JohnOldsMA
Conor Kilgore is an associate of the Project on Ethics in Political Communication. He is a junior from Deerfield, New Hampshire studying political communication in the School of Media & Public Affairs. He is currently an intern at the U.S. Chamber of Commerce. @conorkilg
Peter Loge directs the Project on Ethics in Political Communication and is an associate professor in the School of Media & Public Affairs at The George Washington University. Over the past 25+ years he has served in senior staff positions in the US House, Senate, and Obama administration and has led, helped lead, and advised numerous organizations and campaigns. @ploge
Conor: Thank you all for joining. I’ll be moderating the discussion, and Prof. Loge is free to chime in as he pleases. I want to start by letting you each describe your basic approach to discussing politics around this campus...particularly how you handle fundamental disagreements.
John: At risk of sounding like a complete idiot, I try to avoid talking politics...well, letting politics define me, I guess. As it pertains to going about disagreements, my mother always reminded me that I have twice as many ears as i have mouths -- essentially, I am here to learn and listen, and I am well aware of my lack of experience, aware of my privilege, and aware that my life has been pretty easy. But it all comes back to not defining yourself by politics...when you recognize that life is far more than the left-right continuum, you should be able to be friendly with just about anyone.
Keith: Though I’m part of a partisan organization, I usually try to relate to fellow students through issue-based discussions without an ideological lens. I actually come from a bipartisan family, so I recognize that my party doesn’t have a monopoly on perfect solutions. Usually I try to pinpoint which issues other students care about and then lay out the Democratic perspective for them in as objective a manner as possible. I don’t demonize people who disagree with me, because as my mom says, “Just because somebody’s a Republican doesn’t make them your enemy, and just because somebody’s a Democrat doesn’t make them your friend.”
Conor: How well do you think those philosophies match up with most students on your side of the aisle...at GW or around the country?
John: I mean, any answer to this question is going to involve anecdotal evidence, so we should be aware of that. My general take on this is that most Americans are pretty detached from politics, and they only get involved when something exceptionally good or extraordinarily bad occurs. I think that the news media has a penchant for covering the louder, more extreme voices in both parties, and many people are fooled into thinking that mainstream Democrats are like Sen. Sanders and mainstream Republicans are Steve Bannon. As for the campus, there is certainly a good share of Republicans that have no interest in the other side’s philosophy, but at the same time there are a lot of former Democrats who came to the GOP after learning more about conservatism, so that would make them open minded, no?
Keith: Personally, I get a lot of flak from members of my own party who might say that I’m not feisty enough or I don’t stand my ground on certain issues. Unfortunately, there’s a small faction of people who have this mentality of “my way or the highway,” and have no interest in hearing out other perspectives. I identify as a progressive, but a lot of people frame the way I approach politics as almost too compromising. However, I firmly believe that you can fight hard for progressive values while still being a respectful person and valuing civil discourse.
John: Completely agree, Keith. Lots of folks are uneasy with how non-combative I am...but I always found that the best way to be conservative is to just lead by example, and not yell and scream about being victimized etc. Feel you on that big time.
Peter: How do you (or do you) call out friends who may be going over the top?
John: Hmm, well there are the stereotypical Facebook boomers who think God came to the earth and plopped President Trump in the White House to save us all from our sins….so I don’t know how you can engage with certain people that have those beliefs. As for friends, I typically find that if I reach out to them and just kind of ask “Hey, what were you trying to accomplish with this tweet/statement, etc.” they will kind of do a self-reflection and realize that they were being a little too provocative. Overall, if you just dig down into your friend’s motives, they typically realize that they got caught up in the heat of the moment. However, the question that always seems to stump them is: “why does President Trump have to be our guy...why can’t we pursue similar policy outcomes through a different, more respectful, more inspirational politician?”
Keith: Haha, well the funny thing is that most of the people who criticize me don’t know me personally and are usually voicing their grievances over social media. I try not to engage with those people as much as possible, but if they are one of my constituents, I do feel a duty to reach out and hear their concerns. I commonly tell them that if they have a problem with how I lead, they should either come to my office hours and/or they could run for office themselves. But since the Democratic Party is such a big tent, I’m not going to alienate factions of our group just to appease people who are outraged on Twitter.
Conor: We seem to have a pro-civility group here, so to play the role of Keith's Democratic detractors...are there any lines you wouldn't cross? When you would say to yourself "that person or their views are bad enough to simply not engage with?" Same question to John.
Keith: I certainly think there are boundaries to what is worth debating. For instance, I’m not going to act like climate deniers have a valid viewpoint. I won’t give a platform to people who debase scientific research and put all of us in danger. Talking about solutions is another story though. If John and I want to disagree about how we tackle reducing CO2 emissions, that’s a discussion we should be having. However, we need to have the starting point of recognizing what has already been factually established.
John: Yeah, there are absolutely folks that CRs does not engage with. There are people who defend the anti-Semitic behavior we see on campus -- that is a big non-starter for us. Same with anyone in the party that has a view of race relations that is utterly reprehensible. We have certainly had some “problem children” in the past that we have asked to leave the club.
Conor: Your two organizations co-sponsor events throughout the year. Why do you think that’s been done, and what makes it a productive thing (I assume you think it’s productive) for GW’s political discourse?
John: Keith alluded to this earlier, but co-sponsoring things, coming together on issues, and engaging with Democrats in an apolitical environment is very important. Think about it. SO many CRs come from parts of the country where their only perception of a Democrat is what Tucker Carlson tells them a Democrat is. And vice versa -- I came from an area (MA) where there were not a lot of conservatives. So coming together, engaging with one another, and recognizing that shared humanity means a hell of a lot more than differing partisan leanings...that’s what it’s all about. Also, Keith has a great twitter presence, so it’s hard to not at least respect the guy.
Keith: I think that it’s especially bad on GW’s campus how students sort themselves into their own ideological bubbles. There seems to be a severe lack of interest in engaging with different perspectives (which I believe is one of the main reasons one should attend university). Having bipartisan events is not only an opportunity to meet new people face-to-face rather than over some hostile social media conversation, but it’s also an opportunity to delve into issues and find common ground. And yes, please follow me on Twitter: @keithlnagy.
Conor: Great stuff. Don’t worry Keith, everyone’s twitter accounts will be promoted with this chat.
Keith: Big if true.
Conor: Turning to the rest of the country...is there anything you think college students around the country can learn from the way GW...including your organizations, as well as orgs like YAF and Progressive Student Union...do things? Anything people working in politics in the future should take note of?
John: Well, I think there is a lot of value to the “rest of the country” not being much like GW...that would be exhausting. But generally, when speaking about public policy and politics, they could definitely take a page out of our book. I think of the different families that literally don’t speak to each other based on who someone voted for in 2016...that is maddening to me. This all comes down to recognizing that policy goals and political coalitions are far less strong, or should be less strong, than the bonds we have with our family and friends. Granted, depending on who succeeds Keith and me, we could have a bloodbath for the 2020 election in terms of discourse.
Keith: When I go to conventions and stuff, everybody is always really surprised that we share an office with College Republicans. They’re like “oh my gosh, how do you do it???” And I think there’s just that idea of mutual respect that people need to keep in mind. I tend to believe that most people are good at heart, they just have different visions for how things should be done. There’s a lot of people who favor the combative approach that both John and I kinda resent, but I’ll tell you right now that that approach does not lead to sustainable outcomes and you actually just end up creating deeper divisions in the long term.
Peter: I often talk to communications and political professionals about ethics in advocacy. What advice should I pass along to them?
John: Ethics in advocacy? Can you give me a hypothetical…
Peter: Sure - are there things one ought not say? For example, is it OK to attack all of the press as the enemy of the people? Other examples include personal attacks that may not be relevant, sharing information that’s so much of an exaggeration that it becomes a lie, correcting awful behavior by supporters (Sen. McCain defending President Obama, VP Biden defending Mayor Pete the other day), that sort of thing.
John: Ah, ok got it. There are absolutely lines that one should not cross. While avoiding all logical fallacies, the ad hominem attacks that are so prevalent these days are particularly unimportant. I find it pretty repulsive that people comment on physical appearance as a means of delegitimizing a political opponents’ arguments. And yeah, I personally don’t think that the press is any sort of enemy of the people, but I think we need to have a well-rounded view of these issues and their overall impact. When POTUS says that, he obviously does not believe that as he is eager to share any stories in the press that give him any laudatory attention. However, the impact, that his supporters are trained to think that any negative story is fake, is a massive issue. But that comes down to having an educated population -- so is it unethical? Sure! But if it works, isn’t that what politics is all about? Getting people to agree with you and follow you and back you up? How am I supposed to blame his supporters when we do nothing to help them know better. It’s the same with Bloomberg and Steyer supporters who, presumably, support those candidates because of TV advertising exposure...we can’t blame them for being hoodwinked, they don’t know all the relevant information. Sorry. I am rambling.
Keith: As somebody who was heavily involved in policy debate in high school, I cannot stand people who make ad hominem attacks, even when they are on my side of the aisle. I think we are currently seeing a lot of positive and constructive discourse in the Democratic primary, but there are also a lot of toxic elements like you mentioned. Calling Pete Buttigieg “a rat” or calling Elizabeth Warren “a snake” is unacceptable, and I think it crosses a line. I’ve been criticized as being too harsh on Bernie Sanders’ supporters (even though I love Bernie himself), but I genuinely find some of their rhetoric appalling. When conspiracy theories as well as misogynistic messages are being put out at such a large scale, I think everybody has a moral obligation to condemn that.
Conor: A closer for you both...in one sentence, what’s a piece of advice you’d give to College Democrats and Republicans at other schools around the country?
John: Unpaid internships are human rights violations.
Well, huh, that is a tough one. I think the main, underlying thing is that the operative word in “College Republicans” is actually ‘college.’ That is, when we (our generation) takes over the party, it will not be the party of today….that realization should underlie all of your actions and interactions.
I guess the other thing that would be important is to not let politics get in the way of your worldview. College should be full of new experiences and limiting yourself based on your tribe would be a big disservice.
Keith: Choose your fights wisely, you only have so much energy.
Also, please don’t be a slacktivist, PLEASE go out and canvass.